A Discussion on Death and Dying (PC Death Discussion)

Along with this...


This will apply on battlegrounds too?, like rezzing your pals in that battleground will cost you items you will need for saving people from permadeath?



Are you able to reject pvp from others?, like some people just wanting to PK everyone, or you are just short on time to wait for the 15 minutes respawn you will need to face later, or whatever.

Mmmm...15 minutes watching a "you are dead" screen isn't a good idea, you should be able to respawn...Also...calling for a cleric is forbidden by rules?, like metagaming you just died somewhere and alakazam, cleric comes and rezzes you.



Wut? so let's say I play a spy and I get caught and killed. So suddenly a creature pops out to beat the shit out of my non buffed/non combatant char because yes...Sounds unfair for certain builds. What if I just cast greater sanctuary and run like a bitch without killing the Marut?

My opinion is that its a very harsh system that will inevitably lead to people getting upset.

While I agree that death needs to be a scary thing, I think I would view it from the perspective of the story you're trying to tell. That's all this is after all, a set of rules for our cooperative story telling.

So what you want is death to be scary at the times when it matters, without becoming a burden on player enjoyment outside of that. As part of that, you need to reduce the occurrence of Death to a bare minimum so that when it does happen, people don't shrug it off as their daily routine. For that, you need to distinguish between Plot death and mechanical death. Plot death being death that happens as a result of significant moments, where you want to create tension and a sense of danger. Mechanical death simply being all those other mundane deaths which don't add to a character's story line. Its probably better to just call mechanical deaths something else entirely actually... subdued, defeated, incapacitated, close calls etc but it needs to be clear that ICly the character did not die.

Consequences wise plot death should ideally always lead to character changes.. Whether that is personality changes or permadeath. Mechanical death should only lead to mechanical penalties (loss of gold, equipment, etc).

How to implement those ideas?

I think this is fine. I'd suggest players are strongly encouraged not to refer to as "Death".

I think general PvP should result in subdual by default. Once their opponent is subdued, they should have the option to activate a finishing move ability. This gets around the issue of accidental deaths. Abuse is another major concern because we all know people can't be trusted to act maturely. So on the mechanics side, obviously the character facing death will have consequences, but I would probably add some sort of consequence to the killer as well.

For example, if the dying player is losing a couple levels or more, and getting a death token. I might suggest making the killer lose a level too. You can explain it ICly by saying the Marut or God of Death or whatever was drawn a little closer to both individuals by their actions. (Character's souls could be said to be exceptional because their fates are unwritten, their potential isn't defined blah blah blah and that draws the Marut unlike with nameless monsters and NPCs).

What the double penalty does is ensure characters aren't killing each other over stupid things. They should fight and kill each other over things that matter and progress their individual story lines. Also - it'll make it harder to troll people, or create a character that runs around killing everyone just because they have a better build or gear. It also gives characters an IC reason to spare their enemies rather than always going for the kill.

I don't completely agree with this. If you view it from a story telling perspective, the heroes shouldn't be dying to random nameless goblin #12. What I'd suggest is having alternate death rules for PvE. For example:
  - Fights with bosses follow the same rule as fights with players. They're named creatures, they're meant to be scary and there should be some risk facing them.
  - Fights with unnamed monsters result in a subdual type knockout. They can be revived by allies using "smelling salts" or whatever else. But its important that they don't need to be revived by ressurections or raise dead - for reasons explained above.
  - Fights with unnamed monsters give an option for Respawn. This respawn is different from the regular respawn however. This respawn should have a few random encounters/scenarios which the player is dumped into. Each with their own consequences. So for example, maybe a very low probability option is that they are restored and given a temporary buff by their God. A more common outcome might be that they manage to make a desperate escape while badly wounded. Or maybe they were mistaken for dead, and dumped in a river... They wash up, just barely alive and regain their senses only to realize they're missing some of their stuff. There's lots of possibilities, you just need to script a few and the death script can randomly pick between them.. Maybe adding weighting for certain outcomes depending on certain things. (eg. A paladin is more likely to be saved by their God).

By taking action to reduce the need for these spells (since they should only be used in instances of Plot Death, not mechanical death)... You can make the components valuable, rare, and give the spells the proper IC significance they deserve. You're breaking someone back from the dead. It should be a big deal.


Its an interesting mechanic. I think there is potential for abuse but provided its properly balanced, it could be interesting.

Exactly what kittenfish said, I think people are far too used to playing 'protagonist' characters, and expecting that they should be able to charge in single-handed and win the day.

A non-DM Controlled (even if arguably DM-Reversable), system, automated and potentially player-provokable (via PvP death) permadeath? That seems like a danger waiting to happen. If you want death to have weight, and not be ignored - debuffs, penalties, and temporary issues are likely a better option than risking larger issues and having players losing characters for what could be less-than-ideal reasons or situations.


The Dungeon Master and Storyteller alike in me can see the appeal of Permadeath, do not get me wrong. It both exists as a weighing danger to the characters, gives a depth to the environment, and makes the perception of risk and reward more intense. However - these should be at the arbitration of only parties that can both treat such matters with maturity, and those that can understand the purpose of this death in the scope of a told story.
An automated system can do neither of these things - and having it provoked by other players (leaving potential for, as some might call it, 'justified griefing'), or by potential issues in the setting and environment, is far more liable to have players finding their character removed from them for justifications that may not sit with purpose, and worse, may make players -less- invested in their characters as they are aware of the fact that at any time, someone could form reason to kill them - no matter how subtly OOC, unfair, or simply poorly justified - and remove that character from their access.


I'd suggest keeping the existance of your tokens, but change the effect.

Tokens have a game-time duration of 1 hour.
After a Respawn, a character gains 5 Tokens.
After a Raise Dead, a character gains 2 Tokens (1 if cast within 60 seconds of death).
After a Resurrection, a character gains 1 Token (unless cast within 60 seconds of death).

Character receives debuff as follows while possessing tokens -
- Token / 2 (Round Up) penalty to all Attributes.
- Token x 1 penalty to Attack Bonus, Armour Class, Saving Throws.
- Token x 2 penalty to Skills.
- (Token x 5)% penalty to Movement Speed.

Triggering the receipt of a token resets this cooldown - tokens are not tracked individually.

The result of this is that death, while certainly not final - is painful. A character is required to undergo some form of recovery time, and cannot simply pretend it didn't happen, or powerbuild their way out of it (as any creature made to have a chance to be beaten by a regular - will be consistently beatable by a powergamer that learns its statistics and faults).